Mar. 16th, 2010 10:23 am
tripathy: (Default)
[personal profile] tripathy
From a friend of mine, regarding the phrase "separation of church and state":

"It's an academic catchphrase used by people who want to push their desire to relegate those with certain opinions and beliefs into second class status in society. This is also and dangerous thing because it erodes the principle of freedom of expression and of thought"


Is he saying what I think he's saying? I'm getting the "IT OPPRESSES CHRISTIANS!!" vibe from this. And coming from him--this is the guy from this big family who was homeschooled and is super-Christian (but in a weird way; he's got some ideas/beliefs that aren't normal even for that) to the point of being a creationist--I would not be surprised. Just very, very disappointed. (BTW I have to say that although he holds some wacko beliefs he doesn't proselytize about them--he'll only go into it if nudged--and doesn't judge (aloud) or get up in anyone else's business like the loud American fundies.)

But separation of church and state erodes the principle of freedom of expression and thought? WTF? I mean, really, this boggles the mind and just reinforces my belief that fundies live every day as if it's Opposite Day.

ETA: This is a RL friend, BTW--born and raised in Quebec (anglophone), so the US isn't and has never been his nation. In Canada we don't have the Establishment Clause, but our Charter of Rights and Freedoms has this: "The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." The first fundamental freedom listed that everyone has is "freedom of conscience and religion", followed by "freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication".

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 02:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spotts1701.livejournal.com
Ow! Ow! Get the stupid out! It hurts!

But yeah, I'd put cash on the barrelhead that the next argument would be along the lines of "this nation was founded on Christianity" or "Our laws are based off of God's laws".

Arguing against the separation of church and state is basically a nice smokescreen for "Christians are #1, and y'all can go suck eggs."

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tripathy.livejournal.com
I edited my original post to add that this is a RL friend, born and raised in Quebec, so his nation isn't even the US. At any rate, I'm just so disappointed in him for this because although he's a fundie I thought that he was smarter than to consider Christians oppressed.

My response to him was that I hoped he wasn't saying what I thought he was saying, that "separation of church and state" was the original wording of Thomas Jefferson, and that I wasn't going to get into it with him because politics, religion and friendship don't mix. Hopefully he won't take it any further because I don't want to lose any further respect for him.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 02:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melligator.livejournal.com
lol opposite day... that's clearly it! That is such a wacky way to view that, I'm not sure where you'd even start unraveling it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tripathy.livejournal.com
I know! I was completely blown away. I don't even know how long I sat there after reading that thinking "It couldn't be. I must be reading it wrong. He couldn't possibly think that."

I'm just so disappointed. And I want to throttle his parents for having homeschooled him--not only with a religious bias but in such a way that he has never received his high-school equivalence and neither have any of his siblings. It's like something you'd expect in rural America, not suburban Montreal.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] silverjackal.livejournal.com
Because his particular faith is prevented from hijacking everything and everyone, this = oppressun. Yes. :D (I'm always very amused by the "Christians are persecuted here!" arguments in North America. No, no you're not. Get over it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tripathy.livejournal.com
I'm so disappointed because although I know he's fundie I never figured him as the "OMG persecuted!" type. Whenever he does talk about his religious beliefs he always does it in a calm, rational (well, as rational as these things get when you're talking about creationism), non-judgmental way. This just seems so utterly off the wall and totally crackpot.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 06:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danalwyn.livejournal.com
Strangely, it heartens me to know that there are crazy people on your side of the fence. Probably less of them though then there are here.

Well I'm torn between suggesting you feel pity for him, and suggesting you laugh in his face, and it's probably not good to combine those two. Maybe this is just a random outburst that won't be repeated?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tripathy.livejournal.com
I really hope it won't be repeated, but to think that he believes that...man. Bleh.

I won't bring it up again, though, because I value his friendship, and as fundies go he's the most tolerable kind in that as wacky as his beliefs may be he at least doesn't push them on other people. I suppose I'll just quietly pity him (which I have for a long time because of his lack of education due to his idiot parents).

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thexphial.livejournal.com
It's distressing to me how few people seem to really understand what religious oppression is. No one in my country or yours has been killed for being a Christian of any denomination in... ever? No one is stopped from teaching their kids even crazy stupid stuff, no one is targeted by the government for higher taxes or surveillance for being a Christian. The only thing I could even see a little bit about are those sects that don't give medical care to kids, the government interferes with that sometimes. Sadly, people seem to think that being unpopular or made fun of is the same as oppression.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tripathy.livejournal.com
No one is stopped from teaching their kids even crazy stupid stuff

This! He was homeschooled under religious bias and in such a way that he never got his high school equivalence. And nobody stopped his parents from doing that. Nobody forced him to go to school and be exposed to truly secular education. The separation of church and state meant that his parents were free to teach him as they pleased--and if his job options in life are severely limited because he's that kind of Christian, it surely isn't the government's fault!

Bleh. My brain is still reeling.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-16 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spotts1701.livejournal.com
And yet many of the same Christians who cry "Oppression!" seem to have no problem actually oppressing and discriminating against non-Christians.

The mind, it boggles.


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